Without Short Term Stimulus Global Economy Will Go Over The Precipice

@jstncbllr Actually #1 many producers / sellers pay no taxes at all. #2 government can own the means of production outside the private economy. In Canada we have these & we call them Crown Corporations. Reality is where I come from. Try it out for the first time ever. Don't you ever get tired of the fiction you claim is reality?

@jstncbllr no, your imagination deceives you. Historically shells, sticks, rocks, gold, silver, copper, iron, bronze have been money, as well as children, tools and land. Coins are valued only above their metal for one reason: NEVER the sovereign. Only the difficulty in making a coin look the same as what's recognized, with craftsmanship, while producing a cheaper fraud. Tally-sticks are atypical, a once-in-history situation.

How Dangerous is This Moment? Sept-16-2011--Jeff Madrick, author of the Age of Greed, says with wages flat austerity measures and the domination of finance we face a very dangerous decade. INFO-AWARENESS - VIKEN Z KOKOZIAN

Without Short Term Stimulus Global Economy Will Go Over The Precipice Sept-16-2011--Michael Greenberger: Lack of capital for productive investment starving global economy. INFO-AWARENESS - VIKEN Z KOKOZIAN

@ytgv3fc7 "theft...not part of...private economy" State money exists so that govt can buy *real* domestic goods. By definition, sellers of goods are not govt. They pay taxes. This is like arguing with a creationist about evolution. I'm not even arguing opinion here. I'm just explaining how the existing system works, for better or worse. Aka: reality. You mostly make universal assertions and value judgements based on circular reasoning. Saying something STRONGLY doesn't make it, you know, true.

@ytgv3fc7 "Money is NEVER credit/debt" Historically it is. Your wishes aren't reality, aren't evidence. "tally-sticks...unacceptable" Sigh. Look, I'm not proposing we use tallies *now*. But historically, tallies (or similar tokens) were typical. You were making a *historical* argument for "sound money", right? Coins usually trade at values *above* their value as metal. It wasn't the metal that gave them value. It was the sovereign. Here's an academic paper on the history: bit dot ly/qHKqSk

@jstncbllr PUBLIC servants taking PUBLIC money by force: theft. It needs to stop & now. They ARE government any time they get that money without authorization by each person who is forced to give it up and it's wrong. Those PUBLIC, non-private, MILITARY corporations are not part of the regular private economy whatsoever.

@jstncbllr NO IT IS NOT. Money is NEVER credit/debt. Money is tangible trade items. DEBT is just debt, a CONTRACT, an agreement. NOT MONEY. I am aware of tally-sticks. Highly unreliable, easily corrupted, as easily as printed money. Unacceptable. Coinage was used in GOLD AND SILVER because they have tangible value. Not in dirt bricks or wood or pocket-lint. Because gold & silver are SOUND MONEY. 100% conscious, evolved decision.

@ytgv3fc7 "The only reason [US$] has value [is] to those earning them for trade" Why does anyone accept the dollar as payment? Where does its value come from? Why would any sane person trade real goods for US$? Only reason: they need US$ to pay taxes. But if you have another reason, let's hear it.

@ytgv3fc7 "public spending puts money into salaries of govt workers, contractors..." Yes, people who *work* for the govt, but are not themselves the govt. They're private citizens w/ private bank accounts. Don't get me wrong, I'm against war profiteering, etc, but that public money is spent into *private* corporations. Govt also spends a lot on SSI/medicare recipients, aka: private citizens.

@ytgv3fc7 "SOUND MONEY means money not based on fraud or faith... history of all civilization" Money is a representation of debt/credit between two parties. It was never something people used for it's intrinsic value. Are you aware of "tally" systems? A stick with the amount owed, that was broken in two parts: the "stock" and the "stub". Or clay tablets sealed in containers? Coinage was used when a sovereign demanded payments in coins he created. Not because people thought coins were "sound".

@annoloki "You can't fix corruption by changing what money's made of" Precisely. Instead lets root out the corruption. Of couse the people have to demand it, and not be idiots :( Even a state that pegs it's currency to some commodity is essentially using a "fiat" concurrency. People don't spontaneously use metal as money, despite what gold bugs think. A widely accepted currency only exists when everyone has liabilities that must be met with that currency. Taxes create this liability.

@annoloki no, SOUND MONEY means money not based on fraud or faith, and that's incredibly significant: the most important financial concept in the history of all civilization. With gold-backed currency there was no more confiscation than today through inflation. Some find a way to skip the inflation, some found a way to not get any gold confiscated, nor guns, nor booze, no matter the prohibition enacted. Using fiat currency is robbery & fraud & we can never tolerate that.

@jstncbllr I am absolutely saying I do not want to have a national currency. I'd rather see international currencies in energy + precious metals and local currencies in the form of whatever people choose to use as trade items.

@jstncbllr public spending puts money into personal salaries of government workers, into black-box budgets and into the hands of contractors who only exist to work for the government, like munitions factories. If the gov't stops taxing this can't at any time remove the value of the dollar. The only reason it has value to those earning them for trade, backed by something. It is backed by nothing now: that's why its value is declining rapidly vs valuable things like copper, gold, silver, land.

@ytgv3fc7 "sound money" is just a term that lacks any significance in the real world. With gold backed currency, when the US government get in trouble it just confiscated it all, all the gold and all the guns in all of America wasn't enough to stop that happening. With fiat currency, they just print more. You can't fix corruption by changing what money's made of. Changing your currency is just lazy and will solve nothing, because you still have a populace that submits to the powerful corrupt.

@ytgv3fc7 There are two parts to the national economy: public and private. Taxes remove money from the private sector. Public spending (gov't buying "stuff") puts money into the private sector. If the gov't spends less than it taxes, the private sector overall loses money (its debt increases). If the gov't stops taxing, then the dollar itself becomes worthless -- the only reason it has value is that we all need it to pay taxes. So, are you saying you don't want to have a national currency?

@jstncbllr ya, fraud? Theft? I've heard of that. Private savings is personally owned, public spending is after theft from the private purse. Private savings is individual and nothing else: there is no other definition without using fraud. taxes-govt spending = non-gov't savings: fraud. Reality: Taxes = gov-spending now+gov spending later = some % of total private savings taken. This is the facts: what you put up is purely ideology.

@jstncbllr Oops, I mean to say: Gov't Spending - Taxes = Non-govt Savings - Non-govt Investment It obviously wrong how I had it before. Also, note that if we have a trade deficit, that gets subtracted off the right hand side, meaning less private savings as money escapes the system. If we have both a budget surplus *and* a trade deficit, then that *necessarily* means the private sector is accumulating debt (savings are decreasing). That's why a US budget surplus (right now) would be very bad.

@ytgv3fc7 "Argentina, Zimbabwe or Weimar... You are deeply in error" All that I'm in "deeply" is your BS. There are huge differences between the US economy / politics and what happened in those countries. Each of your 3 examples has a historical context with serious political problems. Zimb, for example, lost most of its domestic production and reached 80% unemployment as a result of Mugabe's land policies. Using these as arguments against sovereign currency is just ignorant. bit. ly/nnBSn8

Without Short Term Stimulus Global Economy Will Go Over The Precipice

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